I tend to agree more with Michael in terms of how to tackle income and
racial inequality.  Because I think that they do go hand in hand as they
also relate to many other factors.  However, to me, I think that the
income disparity is more clear cut than racial/ethnic disparity, unless
we are talking about the outright institutional discriminations (which
may occur less due to certain laws that suppose to provide protection). 
The covert discriminations are more often, but that may have more to do
with how one reacts based on previous life experiences, and how the
other one perceives that reaction as racism or discrimination.  And that
type of interaction (day to day) does not limit to just "race".  

I consider myself as a middle class minority (not affluent nor
impoverished).  Do I experience racism in my life?  Perhaps a better
question is do I think that I experience racism in my life.  I can't
speak to every person with my racial/ethnic background, but I don't
really think about it.  Do I think that "racism" has impeded on my
career and my personal life?  Again, I don't.  I have this naive notion
that if I got to my position right now (which is not much) because of my
race/ethnicity, my age or my gender, and not because of my ability, I
rather not have it!  

And again as Bob pointed out earlier, we tend to aggregate then to study
individuals.  If we do, it would be totally counter what any
"populational" studies should be about.  But sometimes, asking
individuals do give us clues and to help interpret the aggregate info
instead of based on researcher's own bias or what we considered as
"unchallengeable" truth.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

>>> Michael MacDonald <[log in to unmask]> 02/16/07 4:52 PM >>>
It seems to me that it's a "chicken/egg" debate.

Amelioration should come when the two issues (financial and racial
inequality) are tackled *simultaneously.  *Affluent "minorities" (I use
quotes because Anglo-Saxons/Eurocentric Whites are "majority" only
marginally) experience racial inequality and this impedes their
participation in society; yet, impoverished "whites" experience
significant
systemic challenges that also limit their societal involvement.

Just a thought -- comments and insights are welcomed!

Michael

On 16/02/07, Jeff Denis <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> A good portion of racial inequality in health is due to the associated
> economic
> inequality. But not all of it. Some of it is due to everyday
experiences
> of
> racism, plain and simple. For a nice summary of research evidence,
see:
> http://www.rwjf.org/reports/grr/026422.htm (based on the longitudinal
> studies
> of David Williams, now at Harvard's School of Public Health).
>
> I haven't read "The Trouble with Diversity" yet, but my understanding
is
> that
> the author is saying the focus on diversity and racial identity
distracts
> from
> broader structural issues. It leads people to worry about things like
the
> number of black managers or CEOs rather than how the current economic
> system
> allows some people to make billions while others literally starve. So,
> programs
> like diversity training can only do so much. In the absence of broader
> structural changes, they may even make things worse.
>
> Having said that, it's worth emphasizing that reducing income
inequality
> and
> poverty is unlikely to suddenly eliminate all forms of racism. For
> example, if
> my sources are correct, perhaps the biggest social problem in
Scandinavian
> countries today is discrimination against non-white immigrants.
Accepting
> and
> embracing different cultures is one thing Canada does better (although
we
> still
> have a long way to go in accommodating Aboriginal rights & needs).
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
> --
> Jeff Denis
> PhD Student
> Department of Sociology
> Harvard University
>
> "The principle of organizing our society for the benefit of all the
people
> and
> not for a privileged few - that is still here and that is a principle
to
> which
> we adhere." - Tommy C. Douglas
>
>
>
> Quoting Terry Schleder <[log in to unmask]>:
>
> > Dennis,
> > I appreciate your knowledge, wisdom and analyses and I want to
> understand
> > more about this critique. I live and work in public health the US,
and
> have
> > never worked outside the country (sadly).  I am part of local
efforts in
> NM,
> > the poorest state in the US, to address racial health disparities or
> > inequalities in health access/outcomes because I see evidence that a
> focus
> > on income or class is insufficient in dealing with institutionalized
> racism
> > in our healthcare and other politically informed structures.
> >
> > For example, even within our privately insured classes we see
> inequalities
> > by race in treatment, outcomes and access measures.  So, one theory
I
> gather
> > from this is that "equalizing" the health access systems by income
> (private
> > insurance as a proxy since poor folks do not have it here, and the
US
> > doesn't measure "class") still produces racism in aggregated pop.
health
> > outcomes.
> >
> > Our focus on racial health disparities is therefore a strategy to
> increase
> > access to healthcare systems in a more equitable manner, but it is
not
> the
> > end-goal of the movement for universal access, as I see it.  Are you
and
> > this author saying that we should not be concerned with persistent
> racial
> > inequalities because an economic levelling will normalize them?  If
so,
> that
> > sounds intriguing (coming from you) to me but also worrisome given
our
> > country's history with the institutionalization of racism and with
the
> high
> > present-day rates of poverty and disease within racial minority
> communities.
> >
> > Your thoughts are appreciated!
> >
> > Thanks for all you do.
> >
> > Terry
> >
> > Terry Schleder, MPH
> > Community Health Consulting Services
> > 402 Girard SE
> > ABQ, NM 87106
> > 505.401.1328
> >
> > "The opposite of war isn't peace; it's creation."
> >                            - Mark Cohen, Rent
> > On 2/16/07, Dennis Raphael <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > I finished this book and recommend it highly.  His analysis of
> America's
> > > obsession with race and neglect of inequality is consistent with
my
> sense
> > > that focus on racial and ethnic "disparities" in health serves to
> > > depoliticize the issue of class inequalities and the skering of
public
> > > policy priorities towards the interests of the wealthy.
> > >
> > > The problem by this dominant discourse is outlined as being not
that
> there
> > > are a lot of poor people but that the rate for non-whites is
greater
> than
> > > that for whites, not that poverty levels are strikingly high in
the
> USA.
> > >
> > > dr
> > >
> > > -------------------
> > > Problems/Questions? Send it to Listserv owner: [log in to unmask]
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe, send the following message in the text section --
NOT
> the
> > > subject header --  to [log in to unmask]
> > >
> > > SIGNOFF SDOH
> > >
> > > DO NOT SEND IT BY HITTING THE REPLY BUTTON. THIS SENDS THE MESSAGE
TO
> THE
> > > ENTIRE LISTSERV AND STILL DOES NOT REMOVE YOU.
> > >
> > > To subscribe to the SDOH list, send the following message to
> > > [log in to unmask] in the text section, NOT in the subject header.
> > >
> > > SUBSCRIBE SDOH yourfirstname yourlastname
> > >
> > > To post a message to all 1200+ subscribers, send it to
[log in to unmask]
> > > Include in the Subject, its content, and location and date, if
> relevant.
> > >
> > > For a list of SDOH members, send a request to [log in to unmask]
> > >
> > > To receive messages only once a day, send the following message to
> > > [log in to unmask]
> > > SET SDOH DIGEST
> > >
> > > To view the SDOH archives, go to:
> > > https://listserv.yorku.ca/archives/sdoh.html
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > -------------------
> > Problems/Questions? Send it to Listserv owner: [log in to unmask]
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send the following message in the text section --
NOT
> the
> > subject header --  to [log in to unmask]
> >
> > SIGNOFF SDOH
> >
> > DO NOT SEND IT BY HITTING THE REPLY BUTTON. THIS SENDS THE MESSAGE
TO
> THE
> > ENTIRE LISTSERV AND STILL DOES NOT REMOVE YOU.
> >
> > To subscribe to the SDOH list, send the following message to
> > [log in to unmask] in the text section, NOT in the subject header.
> >
> > SUBSCRIBE SDOH yourfirstname yourlastname
> >
> > To post a message to all 1200+ subscribers, send it to [log in to unmask]
> > Include in the Subject, its content, and location and date, if
relevant.
> >
> > For a list of SDOH members, send a request to [log in to unmask]
> >
> > To receive messages only once a day, send the following message to
> > [log in to unmask]
> > SET SDOH DIGEST
> >
> > To view the SDOH archives, go to:
> > https://listserv.yorku.ca/archives/sdoh.html
> >
> >
>
> -------------------
> Problems/Questions? Send it to Listserv owner: [log in to unmask]
>
>
> To unsubscribe, send the following message in the text section -- NOT
the
> subject header --  to [log in to unmask]
>
> SIGNOFF SDOH
>
> DO NOT SEND IT BY HITTING THE REPLY BUTTON. THIS SENDS THE MESSAGE TO
THE
> ENTIRE LISTSERV AND STILL DOES NOT REMOVE YOU.
>
> To subscribe to the SDOH list, send the following message to
> [log in to unmask] in the text section, NOT in the subject header.
>
> SUBSCRIBE SDOH yourfirstname yourlastname
>
> To post a message to all 1200+ subscribers, send it to [log in to unmask]
> Include in the Subject, its content, and location and date, if
relevant.
>
> For a list of SDOH members, send a request to [log in to unmask]
>
> To receive messages only once a day, send the following message to
> [log in to unmask]
> SET SDOH DIGEST
>
> To view the SDOH archives, go to:
> https://listserv.yorku.ca/archives/sdoh.html
>

-------------------
Problems/Questions? Send it to Listserv owner: [log in to unmask]


To unsubscribe, send the following message in the text section -- NOT
the subject header --  to [log in to unmask]

SIGNOFF SDOH

DO NOT SEND IT BY HITTING THE REPLY BUTTON. THIS SENDS THE MESSAGE TO
THE ENTIRE LISTSERV AND STILL DOES NOT REMOVE YOU.

To subscribe to the SDOH list, send the following message to
[log in to unmask] in the text section, NOT in the subject header.

SUBSCRIBE SDOH yourfirstname yourlastname

To post a message to all 1200+ subscribers, send it to [log in to unmask]
Include in the Subject, its content, and location and date, if relevant.

For a list of SDOH members, send a request to [log in to unmask]

To receive messages only once a day, send the following message to
[log in to unmask]
SET SDOH DIGEST

To view the SDOH archives, go to:
https://listserv.yorku.ca/archives/sdoh.html

-------------------
Problems/Questions? Send it to Listserv owner: [log in to unmask]


To unsubscribe, send the following message in the text section -- NOT the subject header --  to [log in to unmask]

SIGNOFF SDOH

DO NOT SEND IT BY HITTING THE REPLY BUTTON. THIS SENDS THE MESSAGE TO THE ENTIRE LISTSERV AND STILL DOES NOT REMOVE YOU.

To subscribe to the SDOH list, send the following message to [log in to unmask] in the text section, NOT in the subject header.

SUBSCRIBE SDOH yourfirstname yourlastname

To post a message to all 1200+ subscribers, send it to [log in to unmask]
Include in the Subject, its content, and location and date, if relevant.

For a list of SDOH members, send a request to [log in to unmask]

To receive messages only once a day, send the following message to [log in to unmask]
SET SDOH DIGEST

To view the SDOH archives, go to: https://listserv.yorku.ca/archives/sdoh.html