hi all,
of course the argument you are making here is that the rich benefit from exploiting the poor- or, at the very least, by keeping them poor.
certainly more wealth spread around could mean more competition for scarce resources, driving up the costs the rich must pay. and certainly, it may be that being rich in a rich society is never as rich as being rich in a poor one... the sheer power of being rich compared to others guarantees that.
orwell thought that the owner class (the capitalists) would provoke wars whenever it seemed like the poor and working class were threatening to get their hands on more of society's wealth. why? because there was obviously too much wealth around and rather then redistribute it and upset the balance of power (in the wrong direction) it would be better to blow lots of things up- basically burning the excess money..
ken
________________________________
From: Social Determinants of Health on behalf of Dennis Raphael
Sent: Mon 11/14/2005 6:52 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [SDOH] economic argument for poverty solutions
Yes, I agree, but the rich shape public policy in our nations and some
argue that the rich benefit from poverty (low wages, ever flattening income
tax rates, etc.)
Witness that our federal government in Canada cries about how health care
being NOT sustainable but has $500 to shell out to each and everyone. What
can I do with $500 if I need a heart bypass and the system cannot provide
one!
dennis
David Young <[log in to unmask]>@YORKU.CA> on 11/14/2005 05:53:41
PM
Please respond to Social Determinants of Health <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: Social Determinants of Health <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: Re: [SDOH] economic argument for poverty solutions
The most convincing econoimc argument that I have seen rests on 2 pillars -
first, a healthy economy depends on healthy demand, and capitalist
economies collapse when demand collapses - reducing poverty is an important
counter-cyclical economic strategy because the poor spend 100% of whatever
marginal increases in income they can achieve. Second, the rich spend their
marginal increases in income on imported goods - the poor tend to spend
their increases on internally generated goods
Dave
David Young
Senior Social Scientist
Knowledge Building Team
Cancer Control Research Institute
100 Drummond St
Carlton Vic 3053
Phone: +61 3 9635 5123
Mobile: 04 1933 5308
Fax: +61 3 9635 5440
email: [log in to unmask]
www.quit.org.au
www.smokefree.org.au
"Don't give me your perfect offering, there's a crack, a crack in
everything, that's how the light gets in"; Leonard Cohen, "Anthem"
-----Original Message-----
From: Social Determinants of Health [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of
Thompson, Kenneth
Sent: Tuesday, 15 November 2005 9:04 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [SDOH] economic argument for poverty solutions
hi all,
this is an important question for me down here in pittsburgh, where the
agenda, after the decline of steel, is, how can this region revitalize its
economy? what role does the region have in the world economy?
the major focus is on finding work for the middle class- and this largely
depends on government subsidies (our biggest employers are medical and
educational institutions). there is hope that biotech will carry us into
the future...
but what about the rest of the people? odd as it seems, making the
argument that these folks matter in the rejuvenation of pittsburgh has been
difficult. its been even harder to argue that their health matters (of
course folks on this list know that ill health and poverty are the
same...).
amartya sen has been arguing that, in the "developing world" it is critical
to make investments in human capacity for an economy and a people to
flourish. and health is a critical human capacity. i have been trying to
extend this argument here in pittsburgh, saying that in a "redeveloping
region" there is a need for human capacity and, therefore health...and
efforts against poverty..
it will be no surprise that this has been tough going. one of the issues
is the racialization of poverty- meaning that race/ethnicity almost
entirely subsumes any discussion of class- which means that only race based
solutions are sought, most of which cant change the dynamics driving
class.. so pushing for health becomes pushing for health for black folks
(nothing wrong in that but it ignores the overall economic structure
afflicting white and black together)..
ken
________________________________
From: Social Determinants of Health on behalf of Christa Freiler
Sent: Mon 11/14/2005 4:04 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [SDOH] economic argument for poverty solutions
In response to Stasha's question on how it is possible to move an agenda
forward based on the argument that poverty costs us all, there are a number
of cross-Canada and national initiatives doing that. Using that argument,
they proceed by developing and promoting policy "solutions" or priorities
for action by different levels of government.
These initiatives include:
1. Campaign 2000, a cross-Canada coalition of about 90 organizations (see
www.campaign2000)
2. Inclusive Cities Canada, a cross-Canada initiative to enhance social
inclusion in cities and communities across Canada (see
www.inclusivecities.ca).
2. The Canadian School Boards Association had a campaign with school boards
across Canada a few years ago where they developed materials talking about
what school boards can do.
This is just a beginning . Christa
----- Original Message -----
From: Donahue, Stasha <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: [SDOH] economic argument for poverty solutions
Good Comment Sara.
Lots of discussion to follow from the group I hope. Regionally in
southern Alberta we have tried influencing local and municipal
decison-makers with a social marketing campaign outlining the costs of
poverty for communities. We are currently doing a dog and pony show
highlighting findings of our latest regional report card and following up
with school boards and municipalities with discussion on how poverty costs
us all. We do need more data on this though to keep illustrating our
point.
Hope we can get there provincially too with the work of the Alberta
Healthy Living Network-Health Disparities Working Group, Alberta Public
Health Association and the Alberta Social Health Equity Network.
How could this be done nationally? I think we need points on all 3 fronts
to influence decision-makers.
Thoughts everyone?
Stasha Donahue
Chinook Health Region Population Health Facilitator:
Child Poverty and Community Development
Box 520
Fort Macleod Alberta T0L 0Z0
Phone: (403) 553-5352
______________________________________________
From a conversation Dennis and I had a couple of weeks ago, have been
mulling over this.
Has anyone come across a convincing economic reason for governments to
address poverty? If we are trying to combat neoliberalism and the power
of market forces, is there an argument that can be made that would
influence those in the middle and upper SEL beyond social justice? Is
this something that we need to even consider or is the 'because it is the
right thing to do' argument enough? The evidence is so strong in terms of
the effects of poverty on the individual and family... is looking at the
cost to society a convincing argument that is going to call people to
action?
If all in society are in agreement that poverty is bad, and we can get
emotional seeing sad pictures on the tv, and hearing heartbreaking stories
of people's struggles, what is it that keeps society from really working
towards solutions? How can we mobilize our society to really make this a
priority issue for policy makers and those in power? Could using the
language and arguments of the market be a strategy?
oh, the mulling continues.
Sara
Sara Farrell, RN, MPA
Community Health Officer-North Region
Toronto Public Health
5100 Yonge Street, 2nd Fl
Toronto, M2N 5V7
416-338-0021
fax 416-338-8550
[log in to unmask]
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