One might say there is substantial confusion among "freedom", 
"priviledge", and in this case, "self-indulgence". Though I hardly call 
it self-indulgence when a woman insists upon working in order to support 
her offspring.

C

Young, Catherine Susan wrote:
> I must admit I was taken aback by the message myself.  I think that Dr. Bowman's root
> concern might be better titled 'The unintended consequences of freedom visited upon the
> nations today.'  In my mind, "freedom" refers in this case to the overblown pursuit of
> individuality and independence to the neglect of human interconnectedness and
> interdependence.  Women being allowed to pursue this ideal is not really the issue.  A
> disregard for the resources that families and communities need to raise healthy
> children is.  So is a general undervaluing of caretaking.  When feeling particularly
> combative, I like to substitute 'caretaking' for 'children,' since that is the
> unfortunate end result.  No one likes to admit that, but children are called
> 'dependents' for a reason.   
>
> Katie
>
> Quoting "Osterud, Dru" <[log in to unmask]>:
>
>  Normally I enjoy Dr. Bowman's commentary and frequently agree with his
>  premises.  This one, however, appears to have been written by an
>  unreconstructed curmudgeon.  I hardly know where to start.
>  
>  First, single women may be mothers, so the issue is not "moot".  In that
>  situation, the full responsibility for the support and nurturing of the
>  children fall on the shoulders of the woman, unless there are extended
>  family members willing to help. Many single mothers raise outstanding
>  children.
>  
>  Second, since when is the responsibility for nurturing the children the
>  sole responsibility of women?  Hello?  Are not fathers also responsible?
>  If "children and family are destroyed," then both parents must be held
>  responsible.  Are men who do not participate in nurturing "free?"  The
>  parenting role of fathers is not an afterthought.
>  
>  What does "free" mean?
>  
>  It is sad that so many parents in this society do not understand
>  nurturing and what is needed to meet the social/emotional needs of young
>  children.  It should be a standard part of high school curricula.  But
>  don't blame women who do not spend their full time nurturing their
>  children during their early years for problems children face later in
>  life.  Many factors go into that outcome.  Unfortunately, a good many
>  children whose mothers were at home with them during the early years did
>  not get what they need from either parent and end up alienated from
>  their families.    
>  
>  
>  Dru Osterud
>  Minnesota
>  
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: Social Determinants of Health [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>  Robert C Bowman
>  Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 3:53 PM
>  To: [log in to unmask]
>  Subject: Re: [SDOH] Quote?
>  
>  The unintended consequences of freedom for women are visited upon the
>  nations today.
>  
>  The welfare of women and children remains one of the best measures of
>  civilized society. The measure of the nurturing and child development
>  experience is most likely the best, particularly when the focus involves
>  the members of society that are most socially isolated.
>  
>  The concepts of freedom for women and the welfare of women differ.
>  
>  In the single woman, the issues are moot. When women become mothers,
>  there is a different situation. Mothers will continue to find that too
>  much freedom destroys children and the family.
>  
>  Women that provide a superior nurturing environment for their children
>  for the early critical years, usually through their own efforts
>  (although other cultural and financial arrangments can be made). Will
>  truly be free in the future as their children are the most likely to be
>  self-sustaining.
>  
>  Women that decide to impose their freedom at the cost of nurturing their
>  children, run the risk that they will never be truly free.
>  
>  Economic desperation and survival may force alternative arrangements for
>  nurturing, with the same consequences as too much "freedom"
>  
>  Fathers are not immune to these areas either. A world designed for
>  maximal freedom with minimal responsibility does not help parenting.
>  
>  The stability of nurturing must be insured by at least one parent. In
>  more and more instances the grandparents are being called in because of
>  inadequate parents.
>  
>  Efficient, effective, and equitable societies (and families, and
>  cities...) begin with superior nurturing. Efficient, effective, and
>  affordable health care begins with adults who were nurtured and because
>  of this make better decisions in life, in health care, in jobs, in
>  education, and more.
>  
>  Signed as a parent of adopted children including some that were not
>  effectively nurtured in the first months of life.
>  
>  Robert C. Bowman, M.D.
>  [log in to unmask]
>  
>  -------------------
>  Problems/Questions? Send it to Listserv owner: [log in to unmask]
>  
>  
>  To unsubscribe, send the following message in the text section -- NOT
>  the subject header --  to [log in to unmask]
>  
>  SIGNOFF SDOH
>  
>  DO NOT SEND IT BY HITTING THE REPLY BUTTON. THIS SENDS THE MESSAGE TO
>  THE ENTIRE LISTSERV AND STILL DOES NOT REMOVE YOU.
>  
>  To subscribe to the SDOH list, send the following message to
>  [log in to unmask] in the text section, NOT in the subject header.
>  
>  SUBSCRIBE SDOH yourfirstname yourlastname
>  
>  To post a message to all 1200+ subscribers, send it to [log in to unmask]
>  Include in the Subject, its content, and location and date, if relevant.
>  
>  For a list of SDOH members, send a request to [log in to unmask]
>  
>  To receive messages only once a day, send the following message to
>  [log in to unmask] SET SDOH DIGEST
>  
>  To view the SDOH archives, go to:
>  https://listserv.yorku.ca/archives/sdoh.html
>  
>  -------------------
>  Problems/Questions? Send it to Listserv owner: [log in to unmask]
>  
>  
>  To unsubscribe, send the following message in the text section -- NOT the subject
>  header --  to [log in to unmask]
>  
>  SIGNOFF SDOH
>  
>  DO NOT SEND IT BY HITTING THE REPLY BUTTON. THIS SENDS THE MESSAGE TO THE ENTIRE
>  LISTSERV AND STILL DOES NOT REMOVE YOU.
>  
>  To subscribe to the SDOH list, send the following message to [log in to unmask] in the
>  text section, NOT in the subject header.
>  
>  SUBSCRIBE SDOH yourfirstname yourlastname
>  
>  To post a message to all 1200+ subscribers, send it to [log in to unmask]
>  Include in the Subject, its content, and location and date, if relevant.
>  
>  For a list of SDOH members, send a request to [log in to unmask]
>  
>  To receive messages only once a day, send the following message to [log in to unmask]
>  SET SDOH DIGEST
>  
>  To view the SDOH archives, go to: https://listserv.yorku.ca/archives/sdoh.html
>  
>
> -------------------
> Problems/Questions? Send it to Listserv owner: [log in to unmask]
>
>
> To unsubscribe, send the following message in the text section -- NOT the subject header --  to [log in to unmask]
>
> SIGNOFF SDOH
>
> DO NOT SEND IT BY HITTING THE REPLY BUTTON. THIS SENDS THE MESSAGE TO THE ENTIRE LISTSERV AND STILL DOES NOT REMOVE YOU.
>
> To subscribe to the SDOH list, send the following message to [log in to unmask] in the text section, NOT in the subject header.
>
> SUBSCRIBE SDOH yourfirstname yourlastname
>
> To post a message to all 1200+ subscribers, send it to [log in to unmask]
> Include in the Subject, its content, and location and date, if relevant.
>
> For a list of SDOH members, send a request to [log in to unmask]
>
> To receive messages only once a day, send the following message to [log in to unmask]
> SET SDOH DIGEST
>
> To view the SDOH archives, go to: https://listserv.yorku.ca/archives/sdoh.html
>
>   

-- 
Cathleen Kneen
2746 Cassels Street
Ottawa, ON K2B 6N7
613-828-6047

-------------------
Problems/Questions? Send it to Listserv owner: [log in to unmask]


To unsubscribe, send the following message in the text section -- NOT the subject header --  to [log in to unmask]

SIGNOFF SDOH

DO NOT SEND IT BY HITTING THE REPLY BUTTON. THIS SENDS THE MESSAGE TO THE ENTIRE LISTSERV AND STILL DOES NOT REMOVE YOU.

To subscribe to the SDOH list, send the following message to [log in to unmask] in the text section, NOT in the subject header.

SUBSCRIBE SDOH yourfirstname yourlastname

To post a message to all 1200+ subscribers, send it to [log in to unmask]
Include in the Subject, its content, and location and date, if relevant.

For a list of SDOH members, send a request to [log in to unmask]

To receive messages only once a day, send the following message to [log in to unmask]
SET SDOH DIGEST

To view the SDOH archives, go to: https://listserv.yorku.ca/archives/sdoh.html