Duane Campbell wrote:

A lot of stuff. I shall try to respond.  As they used to say when the
Lakers and Celtics played for the NBA title, "If you're going to try
to bring that crap down the lane, you had better be prepared to make
your free-throws."


>For Howard Zinn to call himself a patriot is an abomination.



What with "patriot" being the most sacred of all words. Not everyone
deserves the title. First you must do a great deed like put an
oversized American flag on your SUV, thereby lowering already abysmal
gas mileage. Zinn can't meet that kind of standard, that's for sure.



>  He focuses
>on the unavoidable causalities we have caused, despite our effort to
>contain them -- unprecedented in military history --


I think all that is unprecedented has been the campaign in the
corporate media to discuss how casualties have been kept to a
minimum. If you say it often enough, it becomes the truth. If other
people, like Howard Zinn, hadn't kept the issue in the public eye and
And disregard for civilian life has become much more prevalent since
war took to the air. During the Civil War it wasn't unusual for
civilians to watch battles from a close but safe distance. They
didn't fear for their safety at all. This is not to say that
civilians weren't killed in the Civil War but it is to say that
concern for civilian life has plenty of precedent.

>while choosing to
>ignore the hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children the Iraqi
>regime has murdered, often with deliberate sadism.


Zinn has never ignored this and spoke out against Hussein when the
Reagan Administration was assisting him in the 80's. He has never
spoken in his defense on any occasion. The world is full of little
tyrants and would be better without them. But it's the big tyrants
who are the most dangerous. So who's next? Syria? Because they also
have chemical weapons? Because George W. Bush says they do? Just like
he said Saddam had them.

And if you believe Bush is in Iraq now because of some sort of great
love for human rights, I suggest you get yourself a copy of Patriot
Act II and observe just how much respect the court-appointed
administration has for our civil liberties.

Howard Zinn is a decorated combat veteran of WW II and respected
historian. Your bluster cannot diminish him.


>  For every life lost in
>our effort to liberate the people of Iraq, hundreds if not thousands have
>been saved.

You can assert *anything*. Watch-- for the all the lives they claim
they will save with this war, thousands more will die. You see, in
the Middle East this is not looked upon as an assault on Iraq or
Hussein but as an attack on the entire Islamic world. Just because
FOX News tells you this is over, won't mean it is. These aren't the
mellow Vietnamese who will be burning incense for all the war dead at
a temple thirty years from now. These are people with long memories
who will look for any chance to even this score. Wars are easy to
start but hard to end. Bush has just turned Pandora's Box into a
franchise. One opening near you!

See, you can  assert *anything*. The accuracy of assertions will only
be discovered with the passage of time.


>But those lives do not concern Mr. Zinn, nor do the people
>who can now live without the terror of a midnight knock on the door.

Too bad the same can't be said for legal Middle Eastern immigrants
living in the United States.


>I
>would consider Howard Zinn a genuinely evil person were he not such a
>buffoon.


I consider you a typical ugly American.

By the way, who is going to get the contract to replace the 170,000
antiquities that are gone from the Iraq National Museum? Too bad they
didn't have anything of cultural value in there, like a Lee Greenwood
recording or an autographed football from the Dallas Cowboys. That
would have gotten  them the few soldiers needed to protect the place,
for sure. Funny how they managed to get armed guards stationed at the
oil ministry (or whatever the office was called) but couldn't be
bothered to protect such important artifacts. Who needs the remnants
of the birth of civilization when we've got Humvees?

>D
>
>(It is a special pleasure to see "Zinn" come up on my spell checker and
>be able to click "Ignore".)

Yeah, that's a real good one. And it makes an excellent point about
ignorance!

And with all due respect to the list members, I think this discussion
is appropriate for this list. I believe the Clemens I love would be
right in the middle of this fray. I know he would have great respect
for Howard Zinn.

Barry Crimmins