Sorry, "the efficacy of natural remedies is proven in their successful use
over time..." begs the question of what is success and how it's known.
People have done all kinds of things over time, which may or may not say
anything about their efficacy per se.  Pharmaceutical company funding of
research may well be a problem, but that again is separate from the question
of how to know something works.

I think the issue involves questions of how to decipher complex systems of
interaction and causality, which have conventional (medical
research/experimental) answers but still warrant investigation.  The latter
I don't feel I've seen anywhere yet.

Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Tedesco <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: Needing Proof for Natural Products


>The challenge with research on natural products is that there is no
economic
>incentive for a maker to do the research: natural products cannot be
>patented.  Yet, a pharmaceutical company can take a leaf or root, tweak the
>chemical structure in a laboratory to turn the natural product into an
>unnatural one, then patent this product and thereby prevent other companies
>from competing with it.  This is how the vast majority of today's
>drugs--prescription and non-prescription--are made: from natural
substances.
>The efficacy of natural remedies is proven in their successful use by
people
>over time.  And only people who are willing to do a little of their own
>research---and , having cleared that hurdle, are willing to then trust
their
>intuitive sense--will then benefit from their use.  The "medical model" as
>it is used in this country has to do with only logic and numbers and
>clinical trials that somebody has to pay for.
>The challenge in shifting to a form of healthcare that would incorporate
the
>best of both East and West will mean a willingness to look at what has
>historically been proven to work.  And it will also mean an increased
>willingness to see the areas in which Western medicine has utterly failed.
>--
>Charles Tedesco    The Stop Smoking Coach      Smoking Release Associates
>call (760) 631-8222     Individual, Couples and Group Coaching plus
>                                        Do-It-Yourself Cessation Systems.
>Want Personal Coaching to Stop Smoking?   Ask about our free consultation.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Rick Edwards <[log in to unmask]>
>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 8:24 AM
>
>
>>Surely there must be a question about whether flower remedies etc. "work".
>>It's not just 'medical model' to want evidence of effectiveness, despite
>the
>>fact that notions of evidence are dominated by approaches common in
>>mainstream medical research.  I'm open to alternatives, but how can I know
>>that they're effective?  Otherwise I'm vulnerable to snake oil salesmen.
>>How about some informed discussion about research appropriate to
>alternative
>>approaches?
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: jaymach <[log in to unmask]>
>>To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
>>Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 6:48 AM
>>
>>
>>>Hi Todd
>>>Bach Flower remedies were discovered be Dr.Edward Bach in England in
>>>1920's.He proposed a theory of Heal Thyself wherein he stated that if we
>>>have a correct mental attitude we can maintain an excellent health.I
>>believe
>>>that there are many books on this therapy.These flower extracts are made
>>>from common non poisonus flowers and are absolutely safe and without any
>>>side effects.You may visit www.bachcentre.com for additional details.
>>>sanjay
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Todd E. Finnerty <[log in to unmask]>
>>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 1:02 AM
>>>
>>>
>>>>At 10:17 PM 9/14/99 +0530, you wrote:
>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>From: Sasha Claire McInnes <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>Date: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 10:04 PM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I really must get off this list - would the owners please unsub me?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It is very dispiriting, alarming and enraging to wake up every morning
>>to
>>>>>>all the medical-model stuff you folks are promoting.
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>I agree with Mary Pat, in the context in which she responded, and
>>believe
>>>>>>that what Sanjay is promoting can be felt or viewed, by some, as blame
>>>the
>>>>>>victim.  I'm not however, convinced that this is what he meant to do
>and
>>>>>>believe Mary Pat might have misunderstood where he was going with this
>>>>>>"wellness" model.
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>What I hear Sanjay saying is that there are alternatives to the
medical
>>>>>>model and that we would do well to explore them. I am in support of
>>this.
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>sure- if this is what hes saying.
>>>>
>>>>>>Mary Pat mentions "schizophrenia" in the same context as aids,
implying
>>>>>>that it is a *medical* problem.  Scratch the surface of the majority
of
>>>>>>individuals with this label and you'll find a history of abuse.  To
>>>>>>pathologize and medicalize individuals labelled thus is, in my view,
>>more
>>>>>>blame the victim and not an ethical approach to treatment for those
>>>who've
>>>>>>endured abuse.  Of course, it's an easy "fix" and very lucrative for
>>>>>>psychiatrists and drug companies and if we continue down this road,
>>>>>>governments will - as in the case in the US - pay only for treatment
if
>>>it
>>>>>>includes drugs.  Do we want to go *there*?
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Well... that and treatment for schizophrenia is a lot more effective
when
>>>>you use drugs, often helping to return them to a much more "normal"
state
>>>>of functioning. While rallying against the "medical model" you commit a
>>>>cartesian dualism separating the mind and body; nature and nurture. We
>all
>>>>know that its much more popular now to talk about interactions.
Likewise,
>>>>I'm sure the majority of individuals on this list aren't interested in a
>>>>debate regarding the origins of schizophrenia, but I'd be wary of any
>>>>individuals claiming that it takes x number of generations to make a
>>>>schizophrenic, or any single factor like abuse plays such an
>all-important
>>>>role, etc...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>This is in reply to sasha's message
>>>>>As you correctly envisaged I am not for blaming the victim .What I
would
>>>>>like to say is that self help is the best help and if flower remedies
>>give
>>>>>us stimulus for change why not.It is also true that ultimate health
>>>>>responsibility lies with individual but after he is absolved of mental
>>>>>agonies which can be done by flower remedies.After this would come the
>>>state
>>>>>of consciously changing mental attitude without medicines.
>>>>>sanjay .
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Sanjay, what exactly are these consciousness-altering, mental agony
>>>>absolving "Flower Remedies" you speak of? Can they be imported legally?
>Is
>>>>it prozac? *smirk* Can you explain what you mean by this a little more
>for
>>>>the folks at home? Would you "prescribe" these for any one with any
>>>>illness, for instance, and infant with aids?
>>>>======================================
>>>>Todd E. Finnerty
>>>>810 W. Mt. Vernon Apt. A
>>>>Springfield, MO 65806
>>>>(417) 865-0818
>>>>ICQ#: 18369023
>>>>http://members.tripod.com/~tfinnerty
>>>>======================================
>>>>
>>>
>>
>