====================== HES POSTING ================== In a message dated 97-09-18 23:32:33 EDT, Tony writes: << Lists of people who have complained about the state of the subject seem to me to be of limited interest in themselves. << Calling these 'complaints' is a bit of a spin. I think what Neil and I are talking about are substantive identifications of explanatory and logical deficiency/problems within contemporary economic practice made by top economists. These deficiencies are often found to be closely linked with what folks have identified as sociological pathologies in the profession. << 1. We all have a grouse from time to time don't we? >> In every case that I can think of you find top economists making substantive arguments .. you don't find 'grousing'. >> Neil Buchanan's original post remarked that it was particularly economists over the age of 60 who were prone to complain. << Again, you find substantive criticisms and identifications of logical and explanatory deficiencies, you don't find 'complaining'. And many of these substantive arguments are generated out of insights and understandings developed well before these folk had the 'misfortune' of finding themselves over the age of 60. ;-) >> Don't you find that (some) older people in all walks of life complain that things aren't what they used to be? << Again, to characterize the substantive identifications of logical and explanatory deficiency in major portions of contemporary economic practice as 'complaining' mischaracterizes what is actually going on. >> It is when the young people are dissatisfied that you need to worry. << It's time to start worrying, if anything like what Colander, McCloskey, Clower, and others report is anything close to being true. >> 2. Isn't a good researcher perennially dissatisfied with the existing state of knowledge? << The substantive identifications of explanatory and logical deficiency in much of contemporary practice, if valid, are not of the kind which can go away, they are inherent in the strategies themselves for understanding the phenomena at hand. >> That is the motive to try to improve it. << It helps to get a better idea how to improve things when a better and more widely rounded identification of the nature of the problem has been made. Getting a sense of all the dimensions of the problem from various angles, as you get from Neil's project is a good and necessary start. >> What are these people dissatisfied about? << This is an important question to ask -- and to take seriously. >> Are they all saying the same thing? << It takes some work to see the commonality of various substantive identifications of deficiency -- as well as the differences between them. >> Is it 'not enough people are working in my field and citing my papers'? << It's almost never this, as far as I've ever seen. >> 3. Such grouses need a date and a context attached. << Again, the context is almost never 'grousing' -- usually the context is in reflecting on the state of the profession, such as in Nobel lectures or in Presidential addresses, or personal autobiographies, or in attempts to understand the explanatory strategy and logical status of economics. Alternatively they are in reflections on the serious problems and deficiencies of contemporary practice, made in attempts to identify and make sense of what hasgone wrong, or where earlier promise has failed to pay off. >> We are historians, aren't we? >> The task/problem is larger than history. But you are right, historical context helps greatly in gettting a broader sense of what has been identified as a deficiency, and how this came about .. although history itself often doesn't give us the why -- which is given instead by the material itself -- after all, we are scientists, aren't we? >> My memory says that in the 1970s there was quite a widespread feeling that there was something wrong, but that it has declined sharply. >> It began with Hicks, Friedman, & Leijonhufvud in the late 1960's didn't it? But this is only one aspect of the story. >> In the 1970s people were complaining about general equilibrium (GE) theory, then seen as the pinnacle of the subject. << The big story was the 'complaining' about Keynes, as I read the history -- and part of the 'complaint' had to do with the compatibility of the micro story economists were teaching in the morning with the macro story they were teaching in the afternoon. >> Now, no one cares about GE theory one way or the other - the action is elsewhere. << One common 'complaint' you find increasingly today is the sense that, rather than being driven by explanatory success, the profession of economics inceasingly takes a course dictated by intellectual fashion -- evidence of a lack of cognitive constraints on practice capable of leading to lasting achievements that won't simply fall victim to the latest technical fad. >> Is the incidence of complaining rising or falling? How does it compare with other fields? << The only fields I have a sense for outside of economics are Darwinian biology and philosophy. There is nothing like what you find in economics to be found in Darwinian biology -- the sense in Darwinian biology is always that a correctable intellectual error has been made that careful reflection can allow us to avoid. By contrast, in the hallway conversation of philosophers you hear a lot which sounds very like the identifications of fundamental explanatory and logical deficiency you find in the reflections of economists about contemporary economic practice. Now and again, as it does among economists, this hallway talk makes its way into the journals. The critique often sounds very familiar. Talk of journals and contemporary practice being driven by technique or a conceptual analysis & counter-example game, the discipline bouncing from one fad to another, generating no significant or lasting insights. And you have philosophers who have been through a few cycles of these fads, with a more mature understanding of the cognitive picture which drive smuch of contemporary practice, stepping back to point out the inherent explanatory & logical deficiencies that lead to the wheel-spinning of so much of the contemporary literature. The account at this stage is substantive and general in nature. Think of Wittgenstein looking at the contents of philosophical journals over the last 4 decades. The state of things breeds a perceptable bit of cynicism not unlike that wiffed in the self- reports of economists -- a cynicism I've never wiffed among the Darwinian biologists. Greg Ransom Dept. of Social Science MiraCost College ============ FOOTER TO HES POSTING ============ For information, send the message "info HES" to [log in to unmask]