I don't see what the fuss was about.  There is no blatant advertising and
I for one have no problem with it.  I think there should have been a cry
of outrage about this.

Dan Walker
Grand Erie District School Board Archives
Brant Haldimand Norfolk Catholic District School Board Archives

> Dear AAO list readers:
>
>
>
> On July 8, 2008 the AAO Board posted a message severely critical of a
> posting I had done earlier and fully endorsing a response by Bob
> Macaulay, who also took exception to my posting. I felt that both of the
> postings were designed to damage my personal reputation and that of
> Eloquent Systems. I requested a apology.
>
>
>
> Since then Marc Lerman, the new president, contacted me offline to seek
> a resolution to the situation. He agreed to post a public response, but
> with holidays and workload and the need for a Board consensus, it is
> taking much longer than he expected.
>
>
>
> In the meantime I am re-posting the original messages all in one place
> so that interested readers can decide for themselves if an apology is
> warranted:
>
>
>
> *         The posting from me that created the fuss - June 30, 2008
>
> *         The posting from Bob Macaulay - July 3, 2008
>
> *         The posting from the AAO Board - July 8, 2008
>
>
>
> Posting from me that created all the fuss:
>
>
>
> From: A forum for discussion for the Archives Assoc. of Ontario
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Eloquent ListServ
> Sent: June 30, 2008 6:36 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: The cost of free software - summary of response
>
>
>
> Here is a summary of the feedback I got from a posting sent to 6
> different ListServ last Monday. Thanks to those that responded:
>
>
>
> 1.  First, there was no reference to any published results from such a
> study? A business student would probably be best for a study that
> actually compiled the numbers and did the statistics for hours spent by
> professionals on the professional tasks like organizing, describing and
> reference services as well for professionals more involved with getting
> the technology to work.
>
> 2.  The responses seemed to support a study by Gartner Research that
> predicts Software as a Service (SaaS) overtaking open source as a cost
> cutting choice by 2012.
>
> 3.  Some people seemed to take exception to my question being posed and
> accused me of using the listserv for advertizing. I did mention "In our
> consulting work with archivists ..." - not really blatant promotion. The
> irony is that the complaints came from associations that endorse and
> even subsidize consultants that charge for service related to open
> source.
>
>
>
> Here are the quotes from some of the responses from the various
> ListServ. In interest of space, they are taken out of context.
>
>
>
> *         "Nothing is really free... there are costs and trade-offs
> associated with both approaches."
>
>
>
> *         "It's certainly a challenge finding people with the right
> skill set."
>
>
>
> *         "Yes, and aren't there open source service providers who, for
> a price, will administer, train, and even host open source solutions?"
>
>
>
> *         "Realistically, is there any real difference between these
> "hidden" costs for Free and Open software and using proprietary
> software?"
>
>
>
> *         "I've seen both sides - OSS that slowly died and was forgotten
> and Proprietary (collections) software where the vendor seems to have
> gradually lost interesting in actually doing any serious upgrading or
> providing support..."
>
>
>
> *         "I question whether this debate is best posed by a commercial
> entity trying to sell us software." - (from a list member)
>
>
>
> *         "...note that commercial advertisements are not welcome." -
> (directly from the association)
>
>
>
> ----------------- original posting sent Mon 23/06/2008
> ------------------------
>
>
>
> The cost of free software?
>
>
>
> In our consulting work with archivists we are asked for numbers that
> represent the cost of free software and open source solutions,
> especially when comparing them to supported commercial software or
> Software as a Service. How do you price the hidden costs for things such
> as?
>
> *                    Opportunity loss for the delay of projects while
> the professional staff is learning technical skills,
>
> *                    The costs of re-training the archives professionals
> in the technical skills,
>
> *                    The cost of redirecting the professionals into
> technical tasks and away from professional duties,
>
> *                    The cost of teaching in-house computer programmers
> about the requirements of archives applications,
>
> *                    The productivity loss if support is not available
> or responsive to software downtime,
>
> *                    The risk cost when support that might be available
> today is discontinued; or is free today and may become billable or
> discontinued entirely,
>
> *                    The risk-factor cost for the eventuality that in a
> couple of years the software product is no longer endorsed by
> professional associations and subsidized by various organizations. You
> are stuck with it while the current excitement is about a new the
> "flavor of the month" technology.
>
>
>
> It is easy to find anecdotal stories from the past, but I expect there
> has been an academic study reported somewhere. Please forward any
> information you might have about such a study. Failing that, even some
> general statements of your personal experience would be great if they
> could be quoted to my clients.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
>
>
> Merv Richter
> Eloquent Systems Inc.
> Organizing data for eloquent presentation!
> www.eloquent-systems.com <http://www.eloquent-systems.com>
> 604-980-8358/101
> 800-663-8172/101
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
>
>
> Posting from Bob Macaulay in response to the above:
>
>
>
> From: A forum for discussion for the Archives Assoc. of Ontario
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bob Macaulay
> Sent: July 3, 2008 6:02 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Eloquent Systems / Merv Richter AAOLIST Postings
>
>
>
> Open letter to the AAO Executive.
>
>
>
> I understand Merv Richter of Eloquent Systems was previously contacted
>
> directly in writing by the outgoing AAO President -- to clarify to
>
> Eloquent and Mr. Richter that subscribers have voiced dissatisfaction
>
> with Eloquent's AAOLIST commercially-oriented postings, and Eloquent's
>
> not seeming to be willing to respect a line between
>
>   a) commercial speech / advertising, and
>
>   b) collegial exchanges about factors in archival work.
>
>
>
> Notwithstanding this, it is apparent Eloquent/Mr. Richter are persisting
>
>
> with such sends -- leading to a need to address the matter in another
>
> manner.
>
>
>
> As a remedy to this though, AAOLIST shouldn't face being backed-into
>
> adopting a moderated format response, because of non-cooperation, in
>
> reaction to persistent 'over the line' postings from a single source.
>
>
>
> Given this situation, unless the AAO Executive declares a general policy
>
>
> distinction re: excepting / rejecting such AAOLIST uses, the List users
>
> could end up being subject continually to any persons' or organizations'
>
>
> single or multiple unsolicited puff-pieces -- on any subject.
>
>
>
>                         _______________________
>
>
>
> In context, business enterprises, groups, and individuals regularly
> e-mail
>
> George Brown College Archives -- the co-ordinates are readily available
> in
>
> commercial directories, lists of institutional memberships, etc.
>
>
>
> Similarly, Eloquent/Mr. Richter can also freely tap into these readily-
>
> available information sources, to build up a commercial send list for
>
> Eloquent.
>
>
>
>
>
> If of no interest here, unwanted senders are simply put on the 'Junk
> Mail'
>
> exclude list, and are blocked.
>
>
>
> However, in the AAOLIST instance, to locally block incoming Eloquent
>
> /Richter missives --broadcast through AAOLIST via the Eloquent
> ListServ's
>
> subscription-- would mean losing all the other, wanted postings as well
>
>  -- effectively, an undesired 'unsubscribe'.
>
>                         _______________________
>
>
>
>
>
> In the circumstances, it appears appropriate now that the AAO Executive
>
>   i) declare a policy covering this situation, and/or to
>
>  ii) consider the removal of the Eloquent ListServ subscription to
>
>      AAOLIST, as well as, if deemed necessary,
>
> iii) otherwise block Mr. Richter's use of the AAOLIST in the manner
>
>      he has persisted in doing for the purposes of promoting or
>
>      positioning Eloquent's commercial profile and/or business
>
>      activities.
>
>
>
>
>
> Robert Macaulay, George Brown College Archives
>
>
>
>
>
> Posting from the AAO Board:
>
>
>
> From: A forum for discussion for the Archives Assoc. of Ontario
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Deirdre Bryden
> Sent: July 8, 2008 1:26 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: AAO Board's response re: improper use of listserv
>
>
>
> Dear AAOLIST members,
>
> Thank you to Bob Macaulay for his e-mail addressing such an important
> issue.
>
> As mentioned, our former AAO President did contact Mr. Richter at
> Eloquent twice in the past year regarding posting on the AAOLIST.  The
> Board will contact Mr. Richter a third time to make our position clear.
> We will also continue to work on this issue to ensure proper use of the
> AAOLIST as a general discussion forum.
>
> Please contact any member of the Board if you have any further
> questions, problems or concerns.
>
> Yours truly,
>
> President
> Marc Lerman
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> Secretary
> Deirdre Bryden
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> Treasurer
> Betty Jo Belton
> [log in to unmask]
>
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> Institutional Development
> Ellen Scheinberg
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> Director without Portfolio
> Lynn Austin
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> Director without Portfolio
> Jeremy Mohr
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
>



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