Roger:
I'm glad that you remind some in this debate that there is strong indication that both Currie and White were not Soviet agents, and that the evidence from Soviet files should be taken with a certain dose of skepticism. In the case of White some people seem invested in affirming his culpability, and selectively use the evidence that fits their prejudices. Regarding Marie's comments I would agree that in the Roosevelt administration a wide spectrum of views were welcomed. However, one should not make it sound as if it was a period devoid of conflict, and pro-bussiness groups, led by the Du Pont family for example, were heavily antagonistic. In that sense, I would say that today the problem is not that the spectrum of political views in the administration is narrow (and it is to some extent), but that progressive/liberal views are now and have been underrepresented since the 1960s. I tend to believe that the sort of red scare about the New Deal economists played a role in the reduced role of liberal economists in democratic administrations.
Best,
Matías
Matías Vernengo
Associate Professor
University of Utah
260 Central Campus Drive, Room 371
Salt Lake City, UT 84112
(801) 349-9462
________________________________________
From: Societies for the History of Economics [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Roger Sandilands [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 12:29 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [SHOE] Was Pigou a Bolshevik spy?
A propos Samuel Bostaph's tendentious post suggesting that Churchill and Roosevelt should be put in the dock alongside Lauchlin Currie (presumably for helping our Russian allies), list members may wish to look at my entry on Currie in the New Palgrave Dictionary of Economics for its brief discussion of the Currie case, and for the references there to my papers (one with Jim Boughton, historian of the IMF) on the Currie and White cases.
Inter alia, my Palgrave article includes the passage below. No doubt some will dismiss the testimony of an ex-KGB official as worthless. But if so, they should be equally sceptical of Oleg Gordievsky.
The related cases of Currie and White are discussed in Sandilands (2000) and Boughton and Sandilands (2003), where it is shown that the evidence against them is far from conclusive. After reading the latter paper, Major-General Julius Kobyakov, deputy director of the KGB’s American desk in the late 1980s, wrote to the present writer on 22 December 2003 to confirm our conclusions. After extensive archival research on Soviet intelligence in the 1930s and 1940s he found that
...there was nothing in [Currie’s] file to suggest that he had ever wittingly collaborated with the Soviet intelligence… However, in the spirit of machismo, many people claimed that we had an ‘agent’ in the White House. Among the members of my profession there is a sacramental question: ‘Does he know that he is our agent?’ There is very strong indication that neither Currie nor White knew that.
Roger Sandilands
________________________________
From: Societies for the History of Economics [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Samuel Bostaph [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 9:45 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [SHOE] Was Pigou a Bolshevik spy?
Rather different situations indeed. The latter criterion puts Churchill and Roosevelt in the dock with Currie. Not that they shouldn't have been.
Samuel Bostaph, Ph.D.
Professor of Economics and
Chairman
Department of Economics
University of Dallas
(972)721-5159
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened."--Winston Churchill
--- On Tue, 12/7/10, Rosser, John Barkley - rosserjb <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Rosser, John Barkley - rosserjb <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [SHOE] Was Pigou a Bolshevik spy?
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tuesday, December 7, 2010, 2:36 PM
For what it is worth, Gordievsky puts White and Currie in different categories, the former definitely a full-blown spy, the
latter simply someone who talked to people who were Soviet agents from time to time and apparently leaked important information
on one or more occasions during a period when the US and USSR were allies. Rather different situations.
-----Original Message-----
From: Societies for the History of Economics [mailto:[log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>] On Behalf Of mason gaffney
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 12:54 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
Subject: Re: [SHOE] Was Pigou a Bolshevik spy?
I agree with you, Marie, although I may be the only one on this list to do
so. Economists beatify Pareto, an overt Fascist, but obsess over the remote
possibility that Pigou may have been a communist. Meantime may the spirit of
the H.D. Thoreau Inn and Mt. Monadnock hang over you!
Mason Gaffney
-----Original Message-----
From: Societies for the History of Economics [mailto:[log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>] On
Behalf Of Duggan, Marie
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 7:51 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
Subject: Re: [SHOE] Was Pigou a Bolshevik spy?
Dear All,
To me what stands out about the discussions of communists and communist
sympathizers in the 1930s and 1940s is a) that the left extended so much
further to the left than it does today, and b) that advisors to the
government included such a wide spectrum from left to right. I am more
familiar with the case of Harry Dexter White, and I do find the Venona
cables compelling. He certainly did not consider himself un-American, nor
would I consider him such. He was an American who thought that the world
would be better off if a united working class ran it. Obviously, with
hindsight, he had a rather naïve view of the Soviets, but in the context of
a) growing up around working class movements in the US during the Great
Depression, and b) the wartime alliance, it may have seemed rather
different. What amazes me is that the spectrum of people working for a US
administration could extend from communists, to Keynesians, to pro-business
interests. I cannot imagine that sort of spectrum working for one
presidential administration in the US today, and I'd think it best if it
were possible.
Marie Christine Duggan
Assoc. Prof. of Economics
Keene State College
Keene, NH 03435-3400
(603)358-2628
http://keeneweb.org/marieduggan/
-----Original Message-----
From: Societies for the History of Economics [mailto:[log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>] On
Behalf Of Matias Vernengo
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 3:04 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
Subject: Re: [SHOE] Was Pigou a Bolshevik spy?
Dear Barkley:
I think we agree that Pigou was not a spy. We also agree that Keynesian
ideas stand on their own whether a few New Dealers were spies. The
disagreement is how relevant is the evidence from double spies like
Gordievsky, which you suggested was an authority on the subject. On the
validity of that kind of source, I should note that John K. Galbraith used
to say that the evidence on people like Currie and White sited in Soviet
cables was not reliable because they did talk to the Soviets, and were
sources of information, but not as spies. They were only talking to what
where seen as allies against fascism. Also, White was against the Bancor
part of Bretton Woods, but was pretty much a New Dealer and a Keynesian.
You keep bringing Alger Hiss' case up, and the only point is that if he was
guilty, others might have been, and we should not rely on character evidence
for that reason. Guilt by association is not an acceptable standard, in my
view, however. Note that Currie suffered from guilt by association and was
condemned (e.g. exile, loss of nationality, loss of professional
opportunities, etc.). Having left Argentina as a kid, in a different red
scare in which guilt by association played a role, I'm particularly sensible
about accusations that cannot be corroborated. In my view, we'll probably
never know precisely who was or was not a Soviet spy. And character
evidence provides reasonable doubt about the accusations. That's all.
Best,
Matías
Matías Vernengo
Associate Professor
University of Utah
260 Central Campus Drive, Room 371
Salt Lake City, UT 84112
(801) 349-9462
________________________________________
From: Societies for the History of Economics [[log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>] On Behalf Of
Rosser, John Barkley - rosserjb [[log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>]
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 10:32 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
Subject: Re: [SHOE] Was Pigou a Bolshevik spy?
Of course it is impossible to prove a negative, such as "Without question
Pigou was not a Soviet spy."
However, the evidence remains extremely flimsy, and there is strong
counterevidence, with, again, no
obvious reason why Gordievsky would have an agenda regarding Pigou. Even if
he had an anti-
Keynesian one, then why did he identify Harry Dexter White, who was far from
being a strong
Keynesian, at least he blocked Keynes's own version of what was to happen at
Bretton Woods?
As for Kaldor, it is all very nice to have him standing up for Pigou, but
plenty of nice and respectable
people gave character references repeatedly for Alger Hiss. Oooooops!
I have no comment on the Wittgenstein theory, this being the first I have
heard of it. However,
given Cornish's talk of "the Cambridge Five," does this mean that he buys
into John Cairncross as
being "the fifth man"? According to Gordievsky, Cairncross was the most
important of the bunch
except for Kim Philby himself.
________________________________________
From: Societies for the History of Economics [[log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>] on behalf of
Matias Vernengo [[log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>]
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 10:03 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
Subject: Re: [SHOE] Was Pigou a Bolshevik spy?
The fact that one cannot imagine something does not mean that it can't
exist. The whole issue of Soviet spying has been used by people that cannot
or prefer not to distinguish between Keynesian economics and communism to
discredit the New Deal. Pigou was a fairly liberal, in the American sense
of the term, economist with policy views that were not that far from Keynes.
I'm not suggesting that Gordievsky had an agenda on Pigou, but these
literature is pervaded by anti-Keynesian bias. For example, Robert can
speak to the case of Currie, since some used Venona to suggest he was a spy.
For somebody that's not a specialist on Soviet archives, the whole thing
where only a few had for a while access to a limited amount of the files,
which cannot be verified by others, seems flimsy foundation for most
accusations. Kaldor knew Pigou and at least his opinion can be taken for
what is worth, like somebody that provides character evidence in a criminal
trial. Again, I'm not suggesting that Barkley is wrong, just that I would
be more skeptical about the authority of any of these double spies that
claim to have conclusive evidence on who was or not a spy.
Matías Vernengo
Associate Professor
University of Utah
260 Central Campus Drive, Room 371
Salt Lake City, UT 84112
(801) 349-9462
________________________________________
From: Societies for the History of Economics [[log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>] On Behalf Of
Rosser, John Barkley - rosserjb [[log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>]
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 3:28 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
Subject: Re: [SHOE] Was Pigou a Bolshevik spy?
I cannot imagine a single reason why Gordievsky would have an agenda one way
or the other about Pigou, who was not at all a player in Soviet-related
matters, aside from these allegations.
What might be possible is that Pigou had some sort of very low level
interactions or conversations with some Soviet agent that were so
unimportant as not to get into the records at all, although
perhaps he felt weird enough about them to say something during some
drinking session. But it would appear that if there was anything it
amounted to near zero. Whatever was in his coded
diary was almost certainly not some record of his probably nonexistent
Soviet spying.
BTW, Kaldor would not necessarily know. Did he have access to KGB files?
Lots of people made themselves look pretty foolish claiming that neither
Hiss nor the Rosenbergs could have been
Soviet spies over the years (although the real crime in the case of the
Rosenbergs was the execution of Ethel, who at worst typed some stuff that
amounted to little; apparently they got it
because they would not rat on anybody else and it was the uber-height of the
Cold War, and we needed some scapegoats for the Soviets getting the A-bomb a
few months earlier than they
would have without all the spies at Los Alamos, some of whom never have been
identified).
________________________________________
From: Societies for the History of Economics [[log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>] on behalf of
Matias Vernengo [[log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>]
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 4:18 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
Subject: Re: [SHOE] Was Pigou a Bolshevik spy?
I'm not sure that having access to the relevant files makes Gordievsky a
credible source. I'm not a specialist in the topic, so I'm not making any
specific claim. But it's worth noticing that even people with access to
files may have an agenda. The google search I did on him turned a lot of
garbage, and right wing conspiracy theories. I'd rather take Kaldor's word
on Pigou not being a spy as a more credible source. I'm a bit surprised
that the right wing nuts didn't find that Keynes was the 5th spy though.
Matías Vernengo
Associate Professor
University of Utah
260 Central Campus Drive, Room 371
Salt Lake City, UT 84112
(801) 349-9462
________________________________________
From: Societies for the History of Economics [[log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>] On Behalf Of
Rosser, John Barkley - rosserjb [[log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>]
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 12:49 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
Subject: Re: [SHOE] Was Pigou a Bolshevik spy?
I do not know if Gordievsky was right about John Cairncross or not, and it
may be that his account really has to do with this fairly well known matter
involving the Battle of Kursk, but in general he was one who supported
allegations made against many whom many in the US, Canada, and UK denied
were spies (e.g. Alger Hiss, Harry Dexter White, Rosenbergs while denying
the latter were significant at all, and numerous others). Given that he
didi have serious access to the relevant files and these other reports, his
unequivocal denial that Pigou was a Soviet agent must be taken very
seriously.
________________________________________
From: Societies for the History of Economics [[log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>] on behalf of
Robert Leeson [[log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>]
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 11:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
Subject: Re: [SHOE] Was Pigou a Bolshevik spy?
The book 'outing' Pigou and numerous others was serialized in the Guardian
in early summer 1979: several people were outraged (I would like to see the
Kaldor letter if possible). In particular, lawyers for Sir Rupert Peirles
wrote to the publishers of the book stating that "the late Sir Rupert" is
both alive and suing: substantial damages were paid and a apology was read
out in open court.
The origin of the story about Pigou appears to be a drunken wartime evening
in Pigou's rooms in Cambridge with Wilfred Noyce, Terrell, a mysterious
Scots/Canadian and Richard Holmes - who recounted the evening to Richard
Deacon (Donald McCormick) in a 27 page hand written letter 36 years later.
The book was withdrawn after four days and pulped. Hayek appeared to
believe Deacon's account and interpreted the events as evidence of "The
Suppression of Information" (the title of an essay he planned to write on
Pigou and the "suppression" of the book).
Robert Leeson
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Barkley - rosserjb Rosser" <[log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>>
To: [log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
Sent: Sunday, 5 December, 2010 5:58:23 AM
Subject: Re: [SHOE] Was Pigou a Bolshevik spy?
Blunt was the fourth man. According to Gordievsky, the fifth man was John
Cairncross, brother of economists Alec Cairncross.
________________________________________
From: Societies for the History of Economics [[log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>] on behalf of
Nicholas Theocarakis [[log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>]
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 12:43 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
Subject: Re: [SHOE] Was Pigou a Bolshevik spy?
I remember about 30 years ago just before Tony Blunt was outed as the 5th
man (Kim Philby etc.) that someone had suggested in the press that the fifth
man was Pigou. This prompted Nicholas Kaldor to write an irate letter (to
the Guardian I think) restoring Pigou's memory and arguing that because
libel laws do not apply to the dead, this made Pigou the victim of any
troglodyte.
Nicholas Theocarakis
Dept of Economics
University of Athens
On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 4:43 PM, Robert Leeson
<[log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx><mailto:[log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>>> wrote:
I have located the 1905 coded diary that persuaded Hayek that Pigou was -
for over 50 years - a Bolshevik spy.
Hayek was apparently told that the coded messages contained information
about Pigou's involvement in gun-running. Even if this de-coding is
correct, the diary may still be a hoax.
Who can decipher codes?
There is a signature in the diary - it looks rather like the signature on
Pigou's 1958 will rather than his signature as a young man. Hayek apparently
confirmed that he recognized the signature as Pigou's writing.
I would be grateful to have access to other versions of Pigou's signature.
Robert Leeson
[log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx><mailto:[log in to unmask]<https://nemo.strath.ac.uk/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>>
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