Hi list,
This really is a great topic. I graduated from McGill this year and am luck to be working part-time in Montreal. However, I'm applying for permanent positions all over North America but have yet to secure an interview. I know that my cv and cover letters are good so am troubled that I'm not getting a look in. Even more troubling are the emails from people who have been looking for a year or more! Did I make a mistake changing my career path?
Concerning the number of students in archive streams, I believe that McGill took in around 30 this year - far too many.
Sincerely,
Nick who wants to get a good break ANYWHERE!
Sent from my Blackberry - sorry for any typo.
________________________________
From: "Lund, John" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: "A forum for discussion for the Archives Assoc. of Ontario" <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 10:14:00 -0400
To: <[log in to unmask]>
ReplyTo: "Lund, John" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Off Topic - Getting that first job (RE: Learning Opportunity - Amity Group)
Hi folks,
This has been a great discussion from various points of view on providing volunteer services and in what context is best for a student or young professional.
In regards, to the response of students/young professionals getting that first job, I find it a little disconcerting the difficulties expressed in getting an archivist position. As a profession we need to ask why this is the case? Is it primarily a result in the down turn in the economy and fiscal resources directed elsewhere? Is it because archival programs are admitting too many students? Anecdotally I have been hearing that the numbers of students accepted by the primary archival programs is steadily increasing. Are there other reasons we should be addressing?
My experience, and from observing some colleagues, is that getting that first job is largely dependent on the willingness to move. After receiving my MAS I looked far and wide for a position and was hired within a month – month and half from the time I started my serious search for work. That said, I went as far as Mississippi looking for work. While I was offered the position in Mississippi, I ended up in Edmonton. My starting point was Vancouver. Those that I have watched look for work locally have experienced a much harder time finding work. Understandably, not everyone can easily get up and move, life has its restrictions. One can also argue, why should I have to move? This is my home? However, there are only so many archives out there.
All that I’ve said is just from my perspective and experience. I’d certainly be interested to hear from students/young professionals what their experiences are. Also, how do you think professional organizations like the AAO or ACA can help you find that first job or support your efforts in work experience? I can certainly understand the struggle, with my MA in history I looked for work for four years and finally decided that I’d rather be in S. Korea teaching than on the dole. If you can don’t give up on Archives, it can work out!
John D. Lund, Archivist,
City of Ottawa Archives
613-580-2424 x13684
From: A forum for discussion for the Archives Assoc. of Ontario [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michelle Goodridge
Sent: November 2, 2011 7:19 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Learning Opportunity - Amity Group
Greetings all,
I am a budding new archivist, just had my convocation last friday in fact, and I would like to 'try' to be the voice of students and new professionals.
As the archival profession is a very competitive one, opportunities to gain experience and a way in are few and far between. I have been lucky and I have received some opportunities through a couple of paid internships- most recently a YCW Building Careers in Heritage Internship- however, many new archivists do not have such luxuries. In order to get my foot in the door, however, I did volunteer at a regional archives and this experience was very rewarding and I worked with some great people.
Goodwill posted this 'job' through my graduate program almost a year ago and none of us took up the offer. I believe that is largely to do with the fact that it is not paid nor is there a mentor to work with. It's all well and good to gain some archival experience, however, this would not be proper experience worth putting on your resume as you likely will not know what you're doing yet. I worked at a small town museum and worked in their archives and upon completing my degree realized the mistakes I made and even today I notice discrepancies between those with formal training and those without. I think this could be a valuable experience if a practicing archival professional took on this task and had a student shadow them. However, that being said, there needs to be some sort of renumeration for the work completed. Rodney made an excellent point, we are professionals and thus need to be treated as such and that includes recognition for our hard work.
I emailed the contact on this post when I was a student and asked if I could work on it during evenings and weekends and they declined this offer. I have since emailed again and I am going to ask them if they have thought about applying for a grant in order to pay someone to do this for them. There are tons of federal and provincial grants they could try and that way this experience would be win-win.
As I have quickly learned, you need training to do archiving and that training took time, energy and ultimately money. If an institution expects something for nothing, they are likely going to get someone who doesn't know what they're doing and will have to go through this process all over again in the future.
Michelle Goodridge
________________________________
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 17:34:40 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Learning Opportunity - Amity Group
To: [log in to unmask]
Hello again, Laura,
John has articulated some of the issues I intended to bring up in my reply to you, but I think some points are worth repeating/expanding on with the hope that the discussion will continue.
You are certainly correct in stating that the archival community is certainly one which can be turned to for advice but listservs or other professional networks cannot be used by a new archivist to discuss a particular issue of arrangement or the nuances of appraisal as on-site supervision would.
If an "opportunity" such as this is truly one where the person doing the work is supposed to learn, there has to be someone there to teach. Otherwise, they would only be attempting to put into practice what they have already learned without the benefit of an experienced archivist to let them know if they are on the right track or not.
There is nothing at all wrong with volunteering or for offering volunteer positions but we need to be very clear on the parameters. If an institution is looking for someone to do the job of a professional then they should be ready to pay a professional wage. If they are looking to offer an educational opportunity, such as an internship, then they must be willing to put the time and energy into working with the intern so that real learning occurs (on the responsibilities of employers & students in internships I recommend reading the guidelines from San Jose's iSchool http://slisweb.sjsu.edu/classes/294/libr294guide.htm & looking at Rebecca Goldman's presentation on online internships from the recent MARAC conference http://www.slideshare.net/rebgold/online-internships.) If the institution benefits more than the worker, then I think there is a serious imbalance with the situation.
It is precisely because of the extremely competitive job market that we, as a community of professionals, must be very wary of promoting "opportunities" such as the one you posted. What are we saying if we allow an institution - even a non-profit - to benefit from the labour of a new professional without either paying them a living wage or providing them with a valuable learning experience? As a community, it is vital that we comment on situations that are potentially exploitative and encourage institutions who need our expertise to deal with their documentary heritage to find a way to offer a short-term contract or other compensation so that the employers truly understand the value of the work that we as archivists do.
As a community, we should not be encouraging institutions that wish to take advantage of the competitive environment that exists for all archivists - not just students or new professionals. This is an issue that goes well beyond The Goodwill (although, as an organization whose mission is "has always been to create work opportunities and skills development for people facing barriers to employment..." I would expect they would understand the issues at stake here) but this posting can be used as an example of those institutions outside of the archival world who - consciously or not - neither value nor respect the work of archivists.
As members of a professional community, I think it is in all of our best interests to work against this mentality.
I believe this is an important issue for us to discuss and would love to hear what others think of this - particularly any archival students or new professionals. What have your experiences been? What is working and what is not? What would you like to see? What can we as a community do better?
Yours,
Rodney
On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 3:46 PM, Lund, John <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Hi Laura,
Setting aside the salary concern for a moment, as Rodney points out the opportunity under question raises concerns if there is no direct supervision by an archives professional. A student is apt to learn bad practice as equally as they are to learn good practice. Furthermore, there may be pressures by untrained supervisors to apply decisions and methods as they deem fit from their personal experience rather than ascribing professional methodology. I speak from experience. My first experience with archival records was establishing a photo archives for a departmental library for a provincial government. Left to my own devices I did what I thought best. Upon entering an MAS program I soon learned of the various mistakes I made despite my good intentions.
In terms of the fiscal concerns. Simply because students find to a greater and greater extent that they are required to take unpaid internships or other unpaid positions to gain experience does not make it legitimate. Rather our governments at various levels should be pressured to explain why Canadian youth are increasingly being pressured to take positions without pay. Everyone deserves a living wage.
As always, these are my opinions and do not reflect the position of my institution.
Sincerely,
John D. Lund, Archivist
City of Ottawa Archives
From: A forum for discussion for the Archives Assoc. of Ontario [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Lamb, Laura
Sent: November 2, 2011 4:23 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Learning Opportunity - Amity Group
Hello Rodney,
Thank you for your comments.
These days, there is lots of competition for fewer good paying, full time jobs, and students are strongly encouraged by their mentors and potential employers to seek out unique ways to build a solid resume that stands alone. Volunteering our time and practicing what we learn is important; and, I believe any learning experience turns into a positive piece for building a successful career.
That being said, there is no pressure for anyone to accept the position. It has been my experience the archival community is just that, a community of professionals and groups with whom anyone can seek advice from without the worry of being devalued or disrespected.
laura lamb | archives technician | local history & archives | hamilton public library
Search the library's PreVIEW<http://www.myhamilton.ca/about-hamilton/historical-images> database for historical images of Hamilton.
From: Rodney Carter [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 1:40 PM
To: Lamb, Laura
Cc: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>; [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Learning Opportunity - Amity Group
Hello Laura,
I would suggest that if this position comes with neither pay nor supervision of an archivist, that students should steer clear of it.
Despite it undoubtedly being a very interesting collection, if Goodwill, The Amity Group is serious about preserving its history, it should be willing to pay for someone to professionally care for its archives.
If it is being billed as a learning opportunity, then there should be someone who can supervise the individual – someone they can turn to for guidance when they have questions and to evaluate and comment on their work.
Without pay or professional supervision, this position devalues the professional education of a student intern. We must treat interns – students or otherwise – with respect and compensate them fairly for their work.
Yours,
Rodney Carter
On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Lamb, Laura <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Goodwill, The Amity Group in Hamilton is looking for someone who is interested in organizing their history. The project includes organizing their files, conducting oral histories with long time employees, and inventorying ephemeral materials.
This is an excellent opportunity for a school or student practice what they are learning in a real setting. All supply costs associated with the project will be paid by Goodwill, and subject to approval.
Goodwill, The Amity Group was started in Hamilton in 1935 to help able bodied men thrown out of work by the great depression. The first part of this effort started as a Men’s Social Club to provide them with activities that would keep them out of the bars. Quickly attention turned to helping them earn a living and this was accomplished by using their skills to refurbish and sell used goods, in particular furniture.
In 1973, Amity saw that by becoming a member of Goodwill Industries International, it would benefit from the expertise and brand recognition that Goodwill has throughout the world and so the Amity Association of Hamilton became Amity Goodwill Industries, eventually changing its name yet again to Goodwill, The Amity Group.
Anyone interested in this exciting project should contact Sheila Stephen [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> for more information.
laura lamb | archives technician | local history & archives | hamilton public library
Search the library's PreVIEW<http://www.myhamilton.ca/about-hamilton/historical-images> database for historical images of Hamilton.
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Le présent courriel a été expédié par le système de courriels de la Ville d'Ottawa. Toute distribution, utilisation ou reproduction du courriel ou des renseignements qui s'y trouvent par une personne autre que son destinataire prévu est interdite. Si vous avez reçu le message par erreur, veuillez m'en aviser par téléphone (au numéro précité) ou par courriel, puis supprimer sans délai la version originale de la communication ainsi que toutes ses copies. Je vous remercie de votre collaboration.
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