"... economists do not relish an explanation of their own
  scientific behavior in ordinary economic terms.  To tell an
  economist that he chooses that type of work and viewpoint
  which will maximize his income is, he will hotly say, is [sic]
  a studied insult."  [Stigler 1982, p. 60]

On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 4:39 AM, Martin Kragh <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Dear Eric,
>
> I fail to see understand your argument. First of all, I am an economic
> historian not an economist, if that matters. Secondly, I am convinced that
> financial incentives matter for all scientists. This is in fact not very
> controversial in my opinion, and it has been recently discussed by Luigi
> Zingales among others ("intellectual capture") in the economics field.
>
> The problem which remains is that you have yet to show any evidence or a
> credible mechanism which can explain how the Nobel committe would be
> strongly influenced by financial incentives. The comments so far reveal a
> shallow understanding of their work.  And as people's reputation is at
> stake, I would personally be wary of making accusations.
>
> Kind regards,
> Martin
>
>
>
> 10 aug 2012 kl. 19:16 skrev "Eric Schliesser" <[log in to unmask]>:
>
> It never fails to amaze me the length that economists go to claim that
> (financial) incentives do not apply to them.
>
> Prof. Kragh, what matters in the other Nobel prizes is not the origin of the
> money, but rather the way the incentives work for the present Nobel
> Foundation, which appoints the award committees and their funding (as well
> as all their other incentives [prestige, networks, risk aversion, etc].
>
>
>
> BOF Research Professor, Philosophy and Moral Sciences, Ghent University,
> Blandijnberg 2, Ghent, B-9000, Belgium. Phone: (31)-(0)6-15005958
> http://www.newappsblog.com/
> http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=649484
> http://philpapers.org/s/Eric%20Schliesser
> www.cambridge.org/9780521766180
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Martin Kragh <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 8, 2012 8:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [SHOE] RVW -- Schiffman on Kuznets, _Jewish Econ omies: Deve
> lopment and Migration in America and Beyond - Volume I: Th e Economic Life
> of American Jewry_
>
> I will not expand on this any further. I never claimed the prize is not
> biased. But the economists, not "bankers", in the committee do not receive
> their salaries from the Riksbank. I admit however that it is an interesting
> task to ponder what factors have determined their choices in the past and
> present.
>
> That said, the issue of the Riksbank's role is likely not that significant
> here. It is more likely bankers and economists have a similar outlook in
> general. Do you think the other Nobel prizes are awarded with consideration
> to the dynamite business and Baku oil industry? That's where the Nobels made
> their money.
>
> Kindly
> Martin
>
>
>
> 8 aug 2012 kl. 03:15 skrev "mason gaffney" <[log in to unmask]>:
>
>> I hope this is not getting off the track of the original question about
>> Jewish economists, so I will be brief. The following is from
>> www.nobelprize.org:
>>
>> "In 1968, Sveriges Riksbank (Sweden's central bank) established this Prize
>> in memory of Alfred Nobel, founder of the Nobel Prize."
>>
>> If one does not believe that the man or corporation that pays the piper
>> calls the tune, then our whole system of funding higher education and
>> thinktanks from bankers and rentiers and robber barons and selected
>> government agencies can be simon pure and objective. If, on the other hand,
>> one observes that many economists will not bite the hand that feeds them,
>> and may shade their views, consciously or subconsciously, with that in mind,
>> then Riksbank Laureates are a biased metric. If we feel a need for quality
>> comparisons and rankings and degrees of "prestige" among writers, then we
>> are insecure in our own judgments and should perhaps make none.
>>
>> Mason Gaffney
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Societies for the History of Economics [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>> Behalf Of Robert Leeson
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 10:53 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [SHOE] RVW -- Schiffman on Kuznets, _Jewish Econ omies: Deve
>> lopment and Migration in America and Beyond - Volume I: Th e Economic Life
>> of American Jewry_
>>
>> Erik Lundberg worked for the “Skandinaviska Banken, Stockholm”
>>
>> RL
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Martin Kragh" <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 7, 2012 1:33:51 AM
>> Subject: Re: [SHOE] RVW -- Schiffman on Kuznets, _Jewish Econ  omies: Deve
>> lopment and Migration in America and Beyond - Volume I: Th e Economic Life
>> of American Jewry_
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Just a note on the Economic Sciences Prize in Memory of Alfred Nobel: it
>> is not awarded by any “Swedish bankers”. See the list here:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economics/prize_awarder/committee.html
>>
>>
>>
>> Here you have the list of members of the Swedish Royal Academy of Sciences
>> class of social sciences:
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.kva.se/en/contact/Members/Social-sciences/
>>
>>
>>
>> The only “banker” you will find in there is Lars Svensson, who before
>> becoming vice chairman of the Riksbank (Swedish central bank) was already a
>> noted economist at Princeton and Stockholm University.
>>
>>
>>
>> My intuition is that ethnicity, nationality or religion has historically
>> played a relatively minor role in the selection of prize winners. Other
>> criteria, such as “influence on the profession” and “rigor”, have been more
>> important. This is also why we can expect to see fluctuations in the awards,
>> as “rigor” in scientific enterprises is not a constant over time.
>>
>>
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Societies for the History of Economics [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>> Behalf Of mason gaffney
>> Sent: den 6 augusti 2012 23:45
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [SHOE] RVW -- Schiffman on Kuznets, _Jewish Econ omies: Deve
>> lopment and Migration in America and Beyond - Volume I: Th e Economic Life
>> of American Jewry_
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Professor Flanders raises a challenging (if rhetorical) question.  I do
>> not know enough about chemists and mathematicians and their ethnicity to
>> accept or reject her premise of anti-Jewish discrimination before 1946 –
>> perhaps others will provide some evidence. It is common knowledge, of
>> course, that the world raised Einstein to the level of a demi-god;
>> Oppenheimer led the Manhattan Project; Freud dominated psychiatry, and so
>> on, but such fragments are too few to refute her premise.  Others, please
>> chime in!
>>
>>
>>
>> I take this occasion to mention a related topic that I should have raised
>> earlier:  we should not use “Nobel” laureates to measure achievement and
>> distinction in Economics.  These are awarded by Swedish bankers free-riding
>> on the name of Nobel.  They naturally see capital markets from the side of
>> lenders more than borrowers.  Their criteria for selecting Laureates would
>> be bent in that direction. Populist or socialist judges would pick an
>> entirely different group.
>>
>>
>>
>> Diaspora Jews, having no land titles to pledge for loans, and turning to
>> money-lending as a permissible outlet for their enterprise and energy and
>> saving, would be subject to the same bias and develop cultural norms
>> appropriate thereto, hence more simpatico to Swedish bankers. That is no
>> more than an hypothesis, but one worth testing, I should think.  It runs
>> counter to the Jubilee tradition of periodically forgiving debts, and may be
>> the subject of existential strife among Jews (however defined), making
>> testing difficult.  It also changes over time.  “Jubilee” has lost its
>> ancient biblical meaning, while the banking tradition has grown.  Again, I
>> defer to others more familiar with the territory, and hope they will chime
>> in.  It may just be too complex to unravel.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mason Gaffney
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Societies for the History of Economics [ mailto:[log in to unmask] ] On
>> Behalf Of M June Flanders
>> Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2012 11:29 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [SHOE] RVW -- Schiffman on Kuznets, _Jewish Econ omies: Deve
>> lopment and Migration in America and Beyond - Volume I: Th e Economic Life
>> of American Jewry_
>>
>>
>>
>> A brief comment on Gaffney’s point 4:  If American colleges and
>> universities discriminated against Jewish economists because of ancient and
>> medieval patterns of landholding, what is the explanation for their
>> discrimination against chemists, mathematicians, et al. until after the end
>> of WWII?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Professor M June Flanders
>>
>> The Eitan Berglas School of Economics
>>
>> Tel Aviv University
>>
>> Tel Aviv  Israel  69978
>>
>>
>>
>> Tel:  +972.(0)3.549.5625
>>
>>          734.757.8265
>>
>> Fax  +972.(0)3.547.7316
>>
>>
>>
>> [log in to unmask]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Societies for the History of Economics [ mailto:[log in to unmask] ] On
>> Behalf Of mason gaffney
>> Sent: 06 August, 2012 05:06
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [SHOE] RVW -- Schiffman on Kuznets, _Jewish Econ omies: Deve
>> lopment and Migration in America and Beyond - Volume I: Th e Economic Life
>> of American Jewry_
>>
>>
>>
>> I believe that Roy Weintraub errs to dismiss defining a Jew as mere
>> “pilpul” (casuistry).  It is hard to study a subject without defining its
>> central term.
>>
>> He is right, however, that this should not stop us from considering the
>> original questions about how Jews, however defined, have made such a mark in
>> academic economics. Two or three contributors have submitted definitions of
>> Jews.  I would like to suggest some vital points missing from the
>> definitions.
>>
>>
>>
>> #1 is that in medieval times in Europe Jews were not allowed to own land.
>> In contrast the major Christian church, Roman Catholic, was a or often THE
>> major landowner.  In the feudal system, owning land was a personal
>> relationship of loyalty between the sovereign and the “owner”  - “own”
>> relating to the word “owe”, meaning the nominal owner owed cash or other
>> services to the sovereign.  Nothing is ever that simple, but that was a
>> basic part of the bargain. The king’s tenant had to swear PERSONAL loyalty
>> to the king, and be his subject.  A foreigner did not qualify, and infidels
>> were foreigners.
>>
>>                Thus it was consistent with diaspora culture, as it evolved
>> under this system, that Ricardo could create a model in which land rents
>> were considered a “surplus”.  Baron von Thunen in Germany could create an
>> analogous model explaining urban rents, but without its being subject to the
>> same interpretation of a “surplus” (at least, not to my knowledge – if
>> anyone knows otherwise, correct me).
>>
>>
>>
>> #2  is that in Judeah and Israel the tribes were assigned their lands,
>> except for the Levites, who lived on contributions from the landed tribes,
>> and were expected to frame laws for all, owners and plebs alike. This
>> included reassigning lands and forgiving debts every 50 years, a much more
>> egalitarian system than evolved in Christian jurisdictions.  This naturally
>> entailed Jews looking at gentiles from the outside, as it were, hence more
>> objectively, hence more scientifically.
>>
>>
>>
>> #3, since Jews could not own land, it followed that they were unlikely to
>> lend on the security of land as collateral.  Lacking political power, they
>> would be loathe to lend to sovereigns.  It would follow that they would lend
>> on the security of personal property, e.g. inventories, and get involved in
>> small businesses, and identify with them. Of course they also got involved
>> in personal consumption loans, a source of great hostility.
>>
>>
>>
>> #4, American colleges were originally Christian seminaries, and later
>> evolved into satrapies of robber barons and other great landowners. It would
>> follow that they would disfavor Jewish economists until in recent times the
>> Jews had grown richer and could identify more with great wealth.
>>
>>
>>
>> The above needs more refining and better organizing, but I hope the basic
>> ideas are clear and acceptable.
>>
>>
>>
>> #5 is the matter of language.  Having a distinctive language makes it
>> easier to communicate secretly, and weed out spies (as per the Shibboleth
>> story). Pilpul , for example, is not in Webster’s Collegiate or the O.E.D.,
>> and is somewhat exclusionary.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mason Gaffney
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Societies for the History of Economics [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>> Behalf Of E. Roy Weintraub
>> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2012 4:50 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [SHOE] RVW -- Schiffman on Kuznets, _Jewish Econ omies: Deve
>> lopment and Migration in America and Beyond – Volume I: Th e Economic Life
>> of American Jewry_
>>
>>
>>
>> For a comment on the SHOE list, it is curious that John Brown is
>> uninterested in the history of economics. The economics profession was
>> certainly not secular in the sense of neutral with respect to the religion
>> of the economist in the United States until after WWII. To teach economics
>> in an elite institution one had to be a white Christian male. There were
>> only around 100 Jewish scholars teaching any subject, yes any subject, in
>> any, that's right any, US college or university around 1910. And the
>> questions are not about "Jewish economics" but about economists who were
>> Jews. Were their professional experiences different from those of Christian
>> economists? Why were there so many Jewish Nobelists? These seem to me to be
>> historically interesting questions. And to push such questions aside with
>> arguments about the definition of a "Jew" is, frankly, pilpul.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 2:25 PM, John Brown < [log in to unmask] >
>> wrote:
>>
>> I think that the question is interesting but largely unimportant.  In a
>> predominantly secular society, in a discipline that is very secular in its
>> orientation, questions of religious identity are not likely to feature very
>> extensively.
>>
>> I am by background a WASP, however neither my Anglo-Saxon, nor my
>> Protestant origins have ever had any relevance to my professional work.  I
>> assume that most of the many distinguished economists whose ethnic origins
>> were Jewish, did not experience their work as "jewish" but as a contribution
>> to the scientific traditions of economics.  In point of fact, the only
>> references that I can remember to "Jewish economics" originate with facists
>> (specifically Nazis.)  That very point may well explain the discomfort
>> attached to singling out the Jewish contribution to economics.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 10:42 AM, Daniel Schiffman < [log in to unmask] >
>> wrote:
>>
>> I thank Prof. Weintraub for his insightful comments. It is indeed puzzling
>> that historians of economics have neglected the overrepresentation of Jews
>> in economics.
>>
>> I wish to broaden the discussion to the question of religious influence on
>> economists.
>>
>> In 2007, the Center for the History of Political Economy (CHOPE) at Duke
>> University hosted a conference on the subject "Keeping Faith, Losing
>> Faith: Religious Belief and Political Economy." To the surprise of the
>> organizers, there were no submissions dealing with Jewish economists (Brad
>> Bateman and Spencer Banzhaf, "Keeping Faith, Losing Faith: An
>> Introduction," HOPE 40 (Annual Supplement), 1-20).
>>
>> Why were there no submissions on Jewish economists?  Was it lack of
>> interest on the part of historians of economic thought? I believe not.
>> Rather, I believe that the lack of submissions reflects the paucity of
>> religious influences on the writings and/or activities of the leading
>> Jewish economists. This is understandable, when we consider that a. Jewish
>> economists were highly secularized and b. those who were less secularized
>> (if any) would have been compelled to conceal any religious influence, for
>> fear that it would arouse Anti-Semitism and derail their academic careers.
>>
>> Of course, the reality is different today. Today, an economist can publish
>> work on Jewish economic history or on economic analysis of issues that
>> arise in Jewish religious texts, without fear of Anti-Semitism. There is
>> no need to act as Kuznets did--to write papers on Jewishly-oriented themes
>> while concealing those papers from one's fellow economists.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> An optimist, often disappointed, but still hopeful.
>>
>> John Howard Brown, Ph.D.                                  Physical Mail
>> Associate Professor                                          P.O. Box 8152
>> School of Economic Development                        School of Economic
>> Development
>> Georgia Southern University                                Georgia
>> Southern University
>>
>> Statesboro, GA 30460
>>
>> Telephone (912) 478-0896          Fax (912) 478-0710
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> E. Roy Weintraub
>> Professor of Economics
>>
>>
>> Fellow, Center for the History of Political Economy
>>
>>
>> Duke University
>> www.econ.duke.edu/~erw/erw.homepage.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature database 7358 (20120805) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>
>



-- 
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA
95929

530 898 5321
fax 530 898 5901
http://michaelperelman.wordpress.com