________________________________________
From: Michael McLure
Sent: 25 June 2012 12:51
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: [SHOE] R: [SHOE] allusion to Pareto

Auden's views on Pareto and Plato  are probably influenced by Pareto's Treatise on General Sociology, which is highly critical of Plato. I do not have the Treatise with me, but I recall some of those criticisms as rather amusing.

I must, however, express my concern with Roy's characterization of Pareto as Mussolini's house sociologist and fascist apologist.   Mussolini became Prime Minister in 1922 and Pareto died in 1923 and it would be unfair of us to link Pareto to fascist activities undertaken after his death.  Before his death, Pareto's links to the Fascists were rather limited.  It is true that the Fascists heaped praise upon Pareto, but eminent people often have to suffer the indignity of praise from political sources.   But my main concern is the following: the characterization of Pareto as Mussolini's house sociologist and fascist apologist could have the unfortunate consequence of concealing the fact that  Pareto's sociology does not endorse any 'ism'. I think the 'Pareto and Mussolini' issue is generally given disproportionate emphasis and serves as a distraction from the more serious business of developing a critical understanding Pareto's profound contributions to the social sciences. For example, perhaps we would benefit from reflecting on why Pareto's work on social welfare - undertaken well before Bergson - is contained within his sociology (not within his economics).


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From: Societies for the History of Economics [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of E. Roy Weintraub [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 23 June 2012 21:25
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [SHOE] R: [SHOE] allusion to Pareto

These comments to me appear way off base. At the time Auden was writing, he was politically engaged as an anti-fascist having a most recent passion about the Spanish Civil War. Pareto would not have been an economist to him, but rather two other things: first, an excuse for governments' doing nothing in the Depression (a la the Harvard Pareto Circle) and second as Mussolini's house sociologist and fascist apologist. The poem's quoted lines suggest that the poem's speaker saw the then present time valuing Pareto over Plato: this hardly represents mankind's triumphant evolution. And to make the ironic point clearer, the poem's speaker employs Pareto's "acquaintance" and Plato's "intimate".

On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 3:48 AM, luigino bruni <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
On the other hand, Pareto's works are full of references to
literature, poems, and humanities in general.

2012/6/22 Parisi Daniela Fernanda <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>:
> Passion for literature does not know any limits among knowledge fields.
> That is incredible today!!
>
> ________________________________
> Da: Societies for the History of Economics [[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] per conto di Anthony Waterman [[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
> Inviato: giovedì 21 giugno 2012 20.26
> A: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Oggetto: Re: [SHOE] allusion to Pareto
>
> Auden and Harrod knew one another and their (Oxonian)  social circles somewhat overlapped.
>
> Anthony Waterman
>
>
>
> On 21/06/2012 10:42 AM, Paul Dudenhefer wrote:
> For what it's worth, I was reading the English poet W. H. Auden the other night and was astonished to come across a reference to Pareto. It occurs in Auden's long poem, Letter to Lord Byron (1937):
>
>
> But if in highbrow circles he would sally
>
>    It’s just as well to warn him there’s no stain on
>
> Picasso, all-in wrestling, or the Ballet.
>
>    Sibelius is the man. To get a pain on
>
>    Listening to Elgar is a sine qua non.
>
> A second-hand acquaintance of Pareto’s
>
> Ranks higher than an intimate of Plato’s.
>
> I take it the "he" is Byron, although that's not entirely clear.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
> --
> Paul Dudenhefer
> Managing Editor, HOPE
> 213 Social Science Building
> Box 90097
> Duke University
> Durham, NC 27708-0097
> 919-660-6899
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> http://hope.econ.duke.edu/
>
>
>
>
>
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--
E. Roy Weintraub
Professor of Economics
Fellow, Center for the History of Political Economy
Duke University
www.econ.duke.edu/~erw/erw.homepage.html<http://www.econ.duke.edu/~erw/erw.homepage.html>